Let's Talk About Personal Info and Prayer

[tunesmyth]

In the comments of the most recent Prayer List entry, violetcabra brought up an interesting point.

If I may:

In my experience --- the experience of others may differ --- it's way, way more effective to pray on behalf of people when certain conditions are met and way less effective when the conditions are not met. The most pertinent is how much the person on the other end appears to me as being a real person. It is always easier to pray on behalf of someone I am close to in my personal life than a total stranger.

For people I "know" through the online world, it's way easier for me to pray on their behalf if I know their actual name and have seen a picture of them so I can better focus my prayers. If I have never interacted with a person, have no clue what they look like, and direct my prayers towards either a pseudonym or initials, I feel that the prayers are way, way more tenuous in reaching the recipient. That doesn't mean that I don't try, I do. But it feels way more like acting in the dark.

My experiences are pretty common: if you put in a prayer request at the Crystal Silence League --- http://crystalsilenceleague.org/public/prayer_input.php?pt=Prayer%20for%20Myself --- they ask for your name, description and even an image. Some of this is optional, but not all. This seems to me pertinent and worthy to bring up for discussion: it appears that the efficacy of prayers are increased when there is a better formulated sense of the person one prays on the behalf of.

This relates to an important magical principle which touches on prayer: one always gets better results the more fully one can throw oneself into the scales. Using initials or pseudonyms and no image of oneself clearly is less involved than using a real name and an image of oneself so that people can better direct prayers. They also ask for one's address, and one's life ambition.

This is, again, my experience and apparently the experience of others. It seems to me worthy to note, though. If one really wants success, it may be worth using one's real first name at least and even considering posting an image of oneself. If one wants others to pray on one's behalf, it may be worth considering doing so with daring and full engagement.

All of this strikes me as very similar to the conversation we just had among Modern Order of Essenes practitioners, and as, except for at its highest levels, all MOE work is considered sufficiently prayer-adjacent that one may ethically perform it once consent for more general prayer has been attained, it may in fact be the same conversation entirely. In that particular time and place, some people said that they couldn't effectively work without a name and picture; some said it wasn't important; and some (like open_space) were nuanced, saying they could basically make it work in most cases, but that knowing the recepient's name and/or seeing a photo made things easier.

I think it's a reasonable hypothesis that it might be the same with general prayer. Of course, this is all very difficult to get any careful data about. For instance, two cases that come to mind of success stories for this Prayer List, Honey Badger's near-death kidney returning to normal function and 2-year-old epileptic ES's 2nd brain surgery, are cases that we didn't know their real names. On the other hand, it is probably hubristic to take credit for those positive developments; there is no play-by-play announcer watching us send out these prayers and pronouncing for listeners which ones land and which ones don't. (Not on the material plane, anyhow.) And even if we knew for sure that our prayers were what turned things around, it's still difficult to tease out meaningful comparisons of which method of prayer is more effective at the end of the day.

It seems reasonable that, for those of us praying who have some skills in clairvoyance or other forms of spiritual perception, that a self-report is worth something. I myself don't have much in the way of skill in that area, but I'll just report that, so far, of all of the times I've prayed on anyone's behalf with this prayer list, the time where I felt the most palpable feeling of divine presence was during my prayer for 2 year old ES (real name unknown), just before his second surgery. So personally I definitely feel that our prayers to anonymous parties are not wasted.

That said, I do acknowledge that pictures and names will probably help. Actually, in the religious tradition with which I have the longest practice, Shinto, it is (at least in modern times) the normal tradition at shrines to always write one's real name and address on prayer boards or for priest to read out in a ritual; and in those cases, almost never is there a human being recording the names and addresses for later in any way. It's not a sales tactic; it seems to be mainly an aid to the kami and their spiritual helpers!

Anyhow, when it comes to adjusting the way we do things when we solicit prayer list entries, my main worry is that of friction. It's important to me that people feel like they can easily leave prayer requests, without getting stopped by thinking "Oh, should I put my real name? Or my address? What about privacy?" and then putting off leaving a prayer request at all.

My other worry is about privacy. I mean, people post about themselves all the time on social media. But there is something just a little more tender about posting requests for prayers. If we lightly encourage prayer recipients to share personal information or even photos, how do we share this without causing privacy problems? Would sharing photos on the Ecosophia Prayer List weekly direct mail list, but NOT on the blog, be a tenable way, for instance?

So, these are the issues I'm thinking about right now. I'd love to hear the thoughts of others on these issues.

Also, anyone who has strong opinions on whether or not names, addresses, and images are of any importance to prayer effectiveness, I'd like to hear from you a bit more about why you feel this way. Is it that, from your subjective perspective, the prayers simply feel more effective? Is there anyone who can report more effectiveness on the level of the prayer recipients?

Comments

[sdi]

My experience is on both sides of this issue.

Prayers for my wife, who was simply identified as "sdi's pregnant wife," were answered very palpably. Prayers for me, on the other hand, received a significant boost in "strength" when I switched my entry to use my first name. (In fairness, there's the confounding variable that I also focused the intention of the prayer at the same time.) I can also state that the Crystal Silence League, which violetcabra has linked to, is quite a thing and I noticed angels all over the place—and there I gave my full name and photo (at least to their inner circle, since that information isn't posted publicly).

So it's clear to me that it's not necessary to give one's information for prayer to be effective, and yet I've seen a boost in potency in giving that information. I'm also very cognizant of the privacy issues involved: I won't give my full name in any public place, because I have many enemies who have Google emailing them whenever new pages appear on the Internet containing it. (Indeed, the psychically gifted of these have been part of my problem!)

Also, from a purely metaphysical standpoint, it is not clear to me why personal identification is necessary. Surely divinity Knows, right? So while I've seen it and experienced it, I can't say I have any deep understanding of it.

So, in my opinion, I think a simple bullet point in the FAQ's "efficacy" question stating something like "Some of the people participating in this prayer list have found that greater amounts of personal identification—one's real name, description, photograph, etc.—helps them direct prayers and makes them more effective. However, there are many personal issues involved with doing so, and we don't want to turn anyone in need of spiritual help away. If you are comfortable doing so, you may find that identifying yourself more specifically may cause prayers for you to be more effective." That is, I think this should entirely rest on the person asking for aid and that there should be no formal policy except those of tunesmyth's judgement of taste and moral responsibility (e.g. those that are already in place).

(That is to say, I don't think this is a Big Deal™, merely that violetcabra was giving something of a PSA.)

[violetcabra]

If I may, regarding the metaphysics of it:

There are two interrelated reasons why prayer with personal identification might be more powerful. The first concerns the ways that prayer intersects with magic. There is always a tincture of magic in prayers, and the personal information helps with that. That is to say, it's not only the divinities involved with prayer, it is always in part the will of the practitioner. In every religious tradition there is the idea that different people have different talents in prayer.

The second reason is that when a person gives personal information, they are obviously more fully engaged with the process than if they are masked or veiled behind a pseudonym. The more that a person works to make the prayers manifest in their own lives, the more effective the prayers will work. That is to say, the more actively engaged and willful a person is with grounding out their prayers in their lives, the more that the prayers can have an effect.

Interestingly on the metaphysical level, I have gotten the sense that pregnant women receive prayers more readily than perhaps anyone else. The reason for this is, in part, because according to folk magical traditions pregnant women are far more psychically involved that most nonpregnant individuals. Pregnant women exist far more than most humans on a the higher planes, since a big part of the gestation process involves higher plane activity which the subtle bodies of the woman are involved with. It's for this reason, too, that there is the idea across traditions that pregnant women are so vulnerable to curses.

[sdi]

You've managed a lot of food for thought into three short paragraphs! Thank you.

[otter_girl]

I like SDI's suggestion, to consider adding a blurb like this to the website:

"Some of the people participating in this prayer list have found that greater amounts of personal identification—one's real name, description, photograph, etc.—helps them direct prayers and makes them more effective. However, there are many personal issues involved with doing so, and we don't want to turn anyone in need of spiritual help away. If you are comfortable doing so, you may find that identifying yourself more specifically may cause prayers for you to be more effective."

Who knows? Perhaps this suggestion would also prompt the requester to reflect more deeply on what, exactly, they hope for.

"ES" and "Honey Badger" and other nicknames were enough for me, but I understand where it may not be enough for others. (By "enough" I mean that I was comfortable with initials or a nickname, not that I have any gift of knowing one way or the other whether my "healing hands" work was effective.

Valerie

[violetcabra]

Thanks for this, Tunesmyth! Your thoughts are good and important. While I brought up the issue, I don't have strong feelings on the matter. It just seemed something worthy to discuss, the idea that how the recipient approaches prayer might have an impact on the effectiveness of the prayers. That is to say, I don't see anything wrong with the prayer list you manage at all. My attitude is that if there are pertinent technical details that might make prayer more effective, than those are worthy of discussion.

[boccaderlupo]

In my personal opinion, the real names are not necessarily important—not only for privacy considerations, but also for practical purposes.

Again, this is just my take, but prayers are not workings, or at least they are not exactly alike. In a working, the more specific information you have, the more you can direct the intentions and the efficacy of the ritual. In a working, you are trying to directly harness the spiritus/Axé (that is nonetheless being effected by daemons/spirits) and push it in a particular direction. This is the work of an operative mage.

In a prayer, on the other hand, you are directed your intentions TO a divinity ON BEHALF of an individual. The divinity does not need that personal information—the divinity gets it. And while the daemons/spirits/angels are conveying the message, it is the divinity who takes care of things. You, the petitioner, do not need to "feel" the effects of the prayer for it to work.

I am of the opinion that these two are adjacent means of operating, but not identical. And, as noted above, these are just my person opinions.

Blessings to all,
Fra' Lupo

[violetcabra]

Thanks for this, from my perspective those are very worthy points.

[boccaderlupo]

Please do not construe my points as criticism of your efforts. I believe you all are working with righteous intent, and this thread and your comments raise an important point.

The use of images (image-ination) is a potent technique in magical operations, particularly when you have multiple people involved, as it can help harness and focus their energies. The issue is that you run the risk of creating an egregore (Mark Stavish has a good book on that subject, FWIW), in our case an egregore that is attached to images of living persons. In some cases, you want to create an egregore, as it's highly effective, but in our case I don't think so.

My personal opinion: focus your petition to The Divine and strengthen your personal connection on that front. The petition, conveyed by the angels, will then perhaps find the proper audience more receptive, and leave the rest in the hands of The Divine. (Incidentally, I believe this is why some of the ancient grimoires stress that the mage should cultivate a good standing with The Divine prior to engaging in operations, as a degree of personal sanctity can help ensure greater safety when attempting magic.)

Axé

[tunesmyth]

Thanks for this, Fra' Lupo. Just what are we risking here, in your estimation? It seems that everyone more or less agrees that working with photos and real names would probably be more potent. Egregores are common things, and in fact there is already an egregore gathering around this prayer list-- and as long as we continue to keep things on a positive foot, it's not necessarily a bad thing, right? Can you please explain in clearer terms why, even if we did activate small new egregores each time we prayed as a group on behalf of somebody using the same photo, why this could pose any kind of hazard to anyone involved?

[boccaderlupo]

If I could do that, dear tunesmyth, I would be a magus indeed.

May you and all involved continue to be illuminated by the Divine Light, and may this work always bend toward The Good.

Axé

[tunesmyth]

I just want to make extremely clear, Fra'Lupo -- since tone can sometimes be hard to read on the internet! -- that I absolutely, 100%, was not trying to be argumentative with you. I genuinely just do not understand the concern you were bringing up, yet. I'm very happy to take it under consideration and let it inform my ultimate decision on what to do about personal information and pictures on this list. I just need to understand it a little bit better, first. Please let me know if there is anything more you can say to help me to know more clearly what you mean. I'm very interested in what you have to say on the matter.

Axé!

[tunesmyth]

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. Pending responses from boccaderlupo so I can understand his argument better, as well as from anyone else who has a perspective we haven't heard yet in here, here's what I'm thinking about doing:

1. I update the FAQ along the lines that sdi and otter_girl suggest.
2. As far as real names go, if people don't feel comfortable sharing it on the public page, they can submit it to me privately or by mail. Their prayer will then be listed in the normal blog entry in pseudonymous or simplified form, but the e-mail list version will get the real full name (with the pseudonym also listed).
3. Similarly, personal photos will never appear on the blog, but if shared with me, I will include them in the e-mail list version of the prayer list.

Does anyone see any issues with with me doing things this way?

[sdi]

I am similarly interested in our good Br'er Wolf's comments. ♥

Pending that, what you have outlined strikes me as extremely conscientious and I am tentatively in favor it. My concern is that it adds to your maintenance workload, which is already significant.

[sinners4diseasecontrol]

Indeed, this has really become quite a major project here, and I thank Quin from my heart for doing this.

[tunesmyth]

Thanks for your concert, Jay and Pat. I don't really know, but I kind of think that accepting real names and pictures won't greatly add to the amount of time I spend maintaining this list. Although if the volume of new prayers ever expands substantially, I think I will need to ask for a volunteer to help me manage it.

[lp9]

Coming in late but I think the idea of adding names and possibly photos to the email list version is great--if you have the time, Quin. I find my prayers feel stronger when I imagine a visual of the person for whom I'm praying and when I have a real name rather than an internet alias.

[tunesmyth]

Thanks, Lp9. I'm planning to announce the new system with next week's prayer list, and I guess we'll see what happens from there!

[sinners4diseasecontrol]

My input will echo that of others here. In Shinto, the priests ask for full name, address, age, place of birth in as far as known. I've not heard them ask for photos, but typically they are meeting face^to-face with the supplicants. If information is not available, they go ahead with whatever is given.
If I know details about someone on the list, for example, Quin's daughter and father from other conversations, I include them in my prayer. On a public forum like this, anonymity can be very important, so it is reasonable to work within it.
Personally, though, I would really love to see photos of the people I am sending warm thoughts to.

[tunesmyth]

Thanks, I will keep this in mind!