Let's Talk About Personal Info and Prayer
May. 18th, 2023 10:45 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tunesmythIn the comments of the most recent Prayer List entry, violetcabra brought up an interesting point.
All of this strikes me as very similar to the conversation we just had among Modern Order of Essenes practitioners, and as, except for at its highest levels, all MOE work is considered sufficiently prayer-adjacent that one may ethically perform it once consent for more general prayer has been attained, it may in fact be the same conversation entirely. In that particular time and place, some people said that they couldn't effectively work without a name and picture; some said it wasn't important; and some (likeopen_space) were nuanced, saying they could basically make it work in most cases, but that knowing the recepient's name and/or seeing a photo made things easier.
I think it's a reasonable hypothesis that it might be the same with general prayer. Of course, this is all very difficult to get any careful data about. For instance, two cases that come to mind of success stories for this Prayer List, Honey Badger's near-death kidney returning to normal function and 2-year-old epileptic ES's 2nd brain surgery, are cases that we didn't know their real names. On the other hand, it is probably hubristic to take credit for those positive developments; there is no play-by-play announcer watching us send out these prayers and pronouncing for listeners which ones land and which ones don't. (Not on the material plane, anyhow.) And even if we knew for sure that our prayers were what turned things around, it's still difficult to tease out meaningful comparisons of which method of prayer is more effective at the end of the day.
It seems reasonable that, for those of us praying who have some skills in clairvoyance or other forms of spiritual perception, that a self-report is worth something. I myself don't have much in the way of skill in that area, but I'll just report that, so far, of all of the times I've prayed on anyone's behalf with this prayer list, the time where I felt the most palpable feeling of divine presence was during my prayer for 2 year old ES (real name unknown), just before his second surgery. So personally I definitely feel that our prayers to anonymous parties are not wasted.
That said, I do acknowledge that pictures and names will probably help. Actually, in the religious tradition with which I have the longest practice, Shinto, it is (at least in modern times) the normal tradition at shrines to always write one's real name and address on prayer boards or for priest to read out in a ritual; and in those cases, almost never is there a human being recording the names and addresses for later in any way. It's not a sales tactic; it seems to be mainly an aid to the kami and their spiritual helpers!
Anyhow, when it comes to adjusting the way we do things when we solicit prayer list entries, my main worry is that of friction. It's important to me that people feel like they can easily leave prayer requests, without getting stopped by thinking "Oh, should I put my real name? Or my address? What about privacy?" and then putting off leaving a prayer request at all.
My other worry is about privacy. I mean, people post about themselves all the time on social media. But there is something just a little more tender about posting requests for prayers. If we lightly encourage prayer recipients to share personal information or even photos, how do we share this without causing privacy problems? Would sharing photos on the Ecosophia Prayer List weekly direct mail list, but NOT on the blog, be a tenable way, for instance?
So, these are the issues I'm thinking about right now. I'd love to hear the thoughts of others on these issues.
Also, anyone who has strong opinions on whether or not names, addresses, and images are of any importance to prayer effectiveness, I'd like to hear from you a bit more about why you feel this way. Is it that, from your subjective perspective, the prayers simply feel more effective? Is there anyone who can report more effectiveness on the level of the prayer recipients?
violetcabra brought up an interesting point.If I may:
In my experience --- the experience of others may differ --- it's way, way more effective to pray on behalf of people when certain conditions are met and way less effective when the conditions are not met. The most pertinent is how much the person on the other end appears to me as being a real person. It is always easier to pray on behalf of someone I am close to in my personal life than a total stranger.
For people I "know" through the online world, it's way easier for me to pray on their behalf if I know their actual name and have seen a picture of them so I can better focus my prayers. If I have never interacted with a person, have no clue what they look like, and direct my prayers towards either a pseudonym or initials, I feel that the prayers are way, way more tenuous in reaching the recipient. That doesn't mean that I don't try, I do. But it feels way more like acting in the dark.
My experiences are pretty common: if you put in a prayer request at the Crystal Silence League --- http://crystalsilenceleague.org/public/prayer_input.php?pt=Prayer%20for%20Myself --- they ask for your name, description and even an image. Some of this is optional, but not all. This seems to me pertinent and worthy to bring up for discussion: it appears that the efficacy of prayers are increased when there is a better formulated sense of the person one prays on the behalf of.
This relates to an important magical principle which touches on prayer: one always gets better results the more fully one can throw oneself into the scales. Using initials or pseudonyms and no image of oneself clearly is less involved than using a real name and an image of oneself so that people can better direct prayers. They also ask for one's address, and one's life ambition.
This is, again, my experience and apparently the experience of others. It seems to me worthy to note, though. If one really wants success, it may be worth using one's real first name at least and even considering posting an image of oneself. If one wants others to pray on one's behalf, it may be worth considering doing so with daring and full engagement.
All of this strikes me as very similar to the conversation we just had among Modern Order of Essenes practitioners, and as, except for at its highest levels, all MOE work is considered sufficiently prayer-adjacent that one may ethically perform it once consent for more general prayer has been attained, it may in fact be the same conversation entirely. In that particular time and place, some people said that they couldn't effectively work without a name and picture; some said it wasn't important; and some (like
open_space) were nuanced, saying they could basically make it work in most cases, but that knowing the recepient's name and/or seeing a photo made things easier.I think it's a reasonable hypothesis that it might be the same with general prayer. Of course, this is all very difficult to get any careful data about. For instance, two cases that come to mind of success stories for this Prayer List, Honey Badger's near-death kidney returning to normal function and 2-year-old epileptic ES's 2nd brain surgery, are cases that we didn't know their real names. On the other hand, it is probably hubristic to take credit for those positive developments; there is no play-by-play announcer watching us send out these prayers and pronouncing for listeners which ones land and which ones don't. (Not on the material plane, anyhow.) And even if we knew for sure that our prayers were what turned things around, it's still difficult to tease out meaningful comparisons of which method of prayer is more effective at the end of the day.
It seems reasonable that, for those of us praying who have some skills in clairvoyance or other forms of spiritual perception, that a self-report is worth something. I myself don't have much in the way of skill in that area, but I'll just report that, so far, of all of the times I've prayed on anyone's behalf with this prayer list, the time where I felt the most palpable feeling of divine presence was during my prayer for 2 year old ES (real name unknown), just before his second surgery. So personally I definitely feel that our prayers to anonymous parties are not wasted.
That said, I do acknowledge that pictures and names will probably help. Actually, in the religious tradition with which I have the longest practice, Shinto, it is (at least in modern times) the normal tradition at shrines to always write one's real name and address on prayer boards or for priest to read out in a ritual; and in those cases, almost never is there a human being recording the names and addresses for later in any way. It's not a sales tactic; it seems to be mainly an aid to the kami and their spiritual helpers!
Anyhow, when it comes to adjusting the way we do things when we solicit prayer list entries, my main worry is that of friction. It's important to me that people feel like they can easily leave prayer requests, without getting stopped by thinking "Oh, should I put my real name? Or my address? What about privacy?" and then putting off leaving a prayer request at all.
My other worry is about privacy. I mean, people post about themselves all the time on social media. But there is something just a little more tender about posting requests for prayers. If we lightly encourage prayer recipients to share personal information or even photos, how do we share this without causing privacy problems? Would sharing photos on the Ecosophia Prayer List weekly direct mail list, but NOT on the blog, be a tenable way, for instance?
So, these are the issues I'm thinking about right now. I'd love to hear the thoughts of others on these issues.
Also, anyone who has strong opinions on whether or not names, addresses, and images are of any importance to prayer effectiveness, I'd like to hear from you a bit more about why you feel this way. Is it that, from your subjective perspective, the prayers simply feel more effective? Is there anyone who can report more effectiveness on the level of the prayer recipients?
no subject
Date: 2023-05-20 12:26 pm (UTC)The use of images (image-ination) is a potent technique in magical operations, particularly when you have multiple people involved, as it can help harness and focus their energies. The issue is that you run the risk of creating an egregore (Mark Stavish has a good book on that subject, FWIW), in our case an egregore that is attached to images of living persons. In some cases, you want to create an egregore, as it's highly effective, but in our case I don't think so.
My personal opinion: focus your petition to The Divine and strengthen your personal connection on that front. The petition, conveyed by the angels, will then perhaps find the proper audience more receptive, and leave the rest in the hands of The Divine. (Incidentally, I believe this is why some of the ancient grimoires stress that the mage should cultivate a good standing with The Divine prior to engaging in operations, as a degree of personal sanctity can help ensure greater safety when attempting magic.)
Axé
no subject
Date: 2023-05-20 04:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2023-05-20 08:06 pm (UTC)May you and all involved continue to be illuminated by the Divine Light, and may this work always bend toward The Good.
Axé
no subject
Date: 2023-05-21 08:31 am (UTC)Axé!